Michael Cohen - This is for you
Becky: After the whopping response we got to the Trashed.nu entry we’ve decided to deviate from our usual routine and talk about some of the comments posted in response to everything, both on here and on Lovestoned.nu. Usually we don’t go back and rehash the same drama, but this is one of those special times when we just can’t help ourselves.
First thing I’d like to clear up is that Dannerilla’s current layout is not the layout that was ripped off of Brent’s last layout (yes, we wrote this before he shut his site down and came back with a new layout). I wish I had a larger screenshot but the best I can give you is the one on the Trashed.nu entry, you can somewhat see that it’s not the layout he has up at the moment.
Sarai: Also, we’d like to firmly state that the last entry had nothing to do with Daniel’s sexuality, and we also are in no association with TGO. He is his own person with his own twisted opinions, and had I or Becky gotten to the entry’s comments earlier, his comments would have been moderated more closely.
Becky: Right you are. All we care about is that you bring us enough laughs to fill our hollow, empty shells for a minute or two. We didn’t post that entry with the intention of it veering off into homophobialand, TGO acted on his own and without our knowledge. And as Sarai said, we would have brought the trollhammer down swifter if we had gotten there earlier. It does seem to me, though, that Brandy and Dan are using the homophobic remarks from the comments on that entry to draw away attention from the fact that Dannerilla ripped off someone’s layout and made a fool of himself.
Sarai: Well I think Brandy realizes we’re not associated with TGO, but the issue is not about TGO and his stupid opinions. That’s not what this issue is about, and considering TGO’s history, it’s nothing new to sit here and bash him or try to deviate from the main issue – that is, being overly “inspired” and finding it a-okay as long as there is a credit link somewhere on the website. That’s the main issue we discussed last entry, and I’m sticking to it. Could I have said the word issue any more?
Becky: I don’t think that Brandy is that stupid (Dannerilla might be), but people are reading their accounts of the drama and taking it to mean that IP condones TGO’s behavior and we really don’t. I don’t really understand what was so hard to understand about the last entry, it seemed clear to me that Dan was merely an example of a much larger issue. (I think you could have fit a few more “issues” in there somewhere, bb.)
Sarai: Yeah, I thought we had been clear on it too. Daniel was but an example of the issue of crediting as a free pass. Naturally, people took it the wrong way. I’m at a loss on what to do. Tarzan ebonics? Glitter graphics? What is the best way we can get our point across, correctly?
Becky: I think we need to start including diagrams in our posts, or maybe flash cards. Ooh, perhaps we could include illustrations in every entry! You know like a childrens book.
Sarai: The comments were the usual, with the exception of TGO. We got the same reaction we always do: “U HAV NO LYFEZ! PUTHETIC! STEALING IS KOMON NOWADAIZ1” I think we should tackle some of these directly.
So what makes these people so special and different? BIG WOW, its not like I fucking copied his exact look did I? Or coding… GET IT THRU YOUR HEAD, ITS JUST A DESIGN!! It’s all about competition these days. There is no such thing of originality anymore you stupid fucks!
Becky: You did copy his look enough that we noticed it (and according to this blog we weren’t the only ones who noticed). I’m not entirely certain what competition you are referring to, surely you aren’t saying that Brent sent us in to “deal with you” for ripping him off. I can assure you that he did no such thing, and besides we aren’t the bloody mafia! You know through all of this I couldn’t help but feel that if someone were to rip Dannerilla off that he’d probably pop a vein or two and go on a barrel throwing rampage.
Sarai: Yeah, somehow I doubt he’d be so passe if let’s say, he tried something different with coding/structure/color/etc. and someone came right upon his website, became inspired, and then used the same shit on theirs. I’m betting both he and Brandy would shit frisbees and blog about it at least twice.
Yes there IS such a thing as originality. Maybe not 100%, but I’ve come across many different layouts over the net, and I’ve appreciated the fact they’re all special in their own way. Saying there’s no originality at all is ridiculous. All of our websites would then look the same!
Becky: Superficially behind every layout is the same thing: HTML and CSS. When you look closely, however, it becomes apparent that the way that websites are put together varies from person to person and no two sites are the same (unless someone ripped off someone else tag for tag). The idea that you can rip off a layout because it was made using HTML and CSS is absurd, I think Vera put it best when she said:
By your logic, I could rip off say… Dan Brown, because – you know – his works are written in English and everybody is allowed to write in English.
link to comment
The tags we use may not be copyrightable, but the ways in which we manipulate them are.
Sarai: And said creativity is not up for grabs just because you placed a credit link at the bottom of your footer. In my opinion, if you don’t try to somehow make it your own, you shouldn’t be making layouts in the first place. Stick to a premade, it’ll save you some time and you get to still keep your pride.
Becky: Dannerilla neglected to place a credit in his footer! He instead chose to bury it in one of his subpages and then became enraged when people didn’t bother browsing his website to find it. I can’t remember where I heard this, but your visitors don’t want to go the extra mile for you so you have to go the extra mile for them. You can’t be angry that people assumed you did not credit something when you don’t make it painfully obvious to them where the credits are (and that means on every page, usually in the footer or sidebar).
Sarai: Brandy also blogged about the entire thing, and some of her comments were uh, interesting, to say the least. The first one that sticks out for me is Stina:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, I have to laugh at this petty internet drama.
I do wonder, did she really tilt her head back and cackle at a credits post? Because if she did, then well – 0_0
Becky: I thought that the original post was pretty bland and boring considering our past posts (I never thought we would get the number of comments that we did). The drama really started when Dannerilla came in and started posting his rambling, mainly incoherent comments about originality and how he has every right to steal from whomever he wants.
Sarai: The next part is my favorite:
Why do people feel the need to talk about stealing ideas?
Uh… why not? It’s wrong, and I have no problems pointing it out.
Becky: Why do people feel the need to talk about stealing any sort of property (intellectual or otherwise)? Because it’s wrong, it’s an invasion and it’s wrong. Really wrong. And really, who are you to decide what is wrong enough to talk about? Until someone invents a wrongometer then everyone is allowed to post about any wrongdoing they feel is worth posting about.
Internet drama is lame and stupid and those involved are not much better. Scratch that, they are not better at all. I don?t know if you are going to take that offensively because I am not talking about your comments, I am talking about the people that start internet drama. I agree. They are douchebags.
Sarai: Yet she’s commenting on it… Hm.
Becky: She comments on it because she loves the drama and obviously because she’s a douchebag (those who participate in drama are douchebags after all).
Sarai: I espeically love Daniel’s response to her comment. This was after he apologized on our comments.
Stina, I have to agree with you. People don?t realise that nothing is original anymore. What you said in your comments I have to agree with you 110%. What is original these days? Nothing!
I don’t see how people can get anywhere without using ideas/inspiration or what ever. It sickens me that there is drama, and that they can?t keep their mouth shut.
Just like them, its ok for them to bitch and complain, yet when I mention something in my blog its the end of the world pretty much. I don?t get it at all..
If they want to keep talkin? let em?
They obviously have nothing else better to do in their life and talk about ME!
Well I’m confused. I love how he says “let em’”. What are people going to do? Put e-tape over our e-mouths?
Becky: Exactly how are people going to stop us? Are they going to leave more comments lecturing us on how we’re horrible people? Um, yes please? I’d love to have more of those comments, they’re the most entertaining. They won’t stop us, but we do so love getting them.
Personally I “steal” things from other people all the time. A colour here, a style there and I mash it all together to create something I like. I never, ever steal an entire design (like Dannerilla) and even if I were that stupid and pathetic I probably wouldn’t defend it to the death. The difference between “thieves” like me and Dannerilla is that I don’t just glomp onto one site and steal the entire concept, I mash a bunch of stuff together and at least attempt to do more than just change the images and colours. And that is what inspiration is, taking ideas from other people, smashing them together and making it your own. I can’t quite get how anyone can argue that ripping off something, anything, with very little modification is right and “just inspiration”. You need a dictionary more than Jenn.
Sarai: I agree. I’d like to sit here and try to uh, defend our little space here on the web, but I really don’t care that much.
Comments
Well when he came to my site to comment all he did was leave cocky comments, swear and call me two faced. How can I be two faced when I don’t even know him. I thought that applied to only people you know?
People only seem to call you horrible and a drama llama when they are caught out on something. Ridiculous really as I bet they’d be cheering you on and joining in if it were someone else.
What a repulsive twat. As a designer and illustrator, the idea that this twat feels he has the right to just pick and use what he likes…. it makes me feel physically sick.
I’ve known a few mongoloids who thing that its acceptable behaviour, but that’s mostly because they don’t know any better! This shit-stain knows, doesn’t care AND defends it? That makes him even worse. DIAF, fuckface. (Well, if he truly didn’t care, he would’ve left the stolen design up so people could judge for themselves…)
Just because the ability to actually create something original is beyond him, he doesn’t value it. I agree, if you find it impossible to create an original design, then DON’T. Use a premade, save us all the trouble of dealing with you dumb ass.
::seethes::
Sarai: Lissy: Possibly. Michael Cohen is TGO’s real name, supposedly. He doesn’t like it being thrown about, he tries to keep himself anonymous, you see.
Michael Cohen is TGO’s real name, but he hates being referenced as that, therefore he uses TGO, short for “the great one”. Then again, he actually believes that people take his entries seriously, and tries to put these wacky ideas into his own head.
Now, let me say this. I wasn’t trying to steer away from the fact that Daniel stole anything. It wasn’t intentional. I was trying to prove that “some people” (referring to TGO) have no respect towards peoples feelings, and have the nerve to name call. Whether Daniel stole or not, criticising his action was one thing, but I think that the comments in the previous entry did get pretty out of hand with the name calling. TGO just stirred it up even more. But yeah, I’m glad to see that you guys didn’t tolerate his behavior.
However, when I did post my entry, and plugged the article, people started veering into the direction, and discussing the post further, when I had no intentions on blaming Daniel for anything. Also, when I mentioned some of the comments that Daniel was posting, to stick up for himself, I only said that because, when you do, it gets you in even more trouble.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
cleans ears Contrary to popular belief Brandy, we’re not unreasonable and if you have a valid argument we listen to it. However Daniel’s only argument was “well nothing’s original anymore so get off my back”.
Translation: OK I took it so? Everybody does this. Why don’t you go harp on them as well?
Daniel’s silly; I disagree with his stance. While the overly-inspired thing he created was just an example of dubious copying… I find it hard to feel sympathetic about Neonglow being copied. To me, the whole fiasco with Daniel is more like karma. Brent does not respect intellectual property (see neonglow forum themes for reference).
This entire post strikes me as incredibly empty. You guys imply that you care about intellectual property when you say things like
Let this be a warning to all of you other offenders out there, we’re watching you. Hopefully you’ll learn something today.
Why do people feel the need to talk about stealing any sort of property (intellectual or otherwise)? Because it’s wrong, it’s an invasion and it’s wrong. Really wrong.
But then when it comes to Brent “stealing” pictures, you don’t care?
Is it illegal to use celebrity images without permission? Yes, of course it is. […] Are we all aware of that? Yes, yes we are. We are not sitting here defending the illegal aspect of the header image, like so many teeny-boppers are prone to doing. We are fully aware that we are breaking the law, and we just don’t care.
WTF, you guys? If you don’t care others’ intellectual property, isn’t it a bit much to aggressively go after people for violating yours?
I really have to agree with Chantelle… karma, karma, karma! The whole thing on Snark about neonglow really was disappointing because you were quite the hypocrite and I feel you should come back on your stence and take off the offending layout. Seriously… Because everytime you’re going to refer to copyright infrigment, someones going to kill you credibility with this.
and Neonglow forums do not fall under the ‘personal website’ category, which is essentially what we’re discussingHow convenient.
Using celebrity images – or screencaps of movies – in website headers does not in any way constitute fair use and I cannot believe you are trying to pull that lameass excuse.
I don’t see how backs can be turned when a favored person “steals” something but if someone else does it, they will hear hell until no tomorrow. No, you can not twist someones arm until they take down their layout that many may also constitute as “stolen”, but how is it justified to pick someone else apart for essentially doing the same thing with different materials?
While I don’t condone “stolen” materials I also feel like this is the Internet, there are many different people who express their creativity differently. Sometimes this may be in the form of a blend (using celebrity images) or inspired by another layout (single column, for example). Proper credit should be given where due, but I don’t think it’s a fatal move to not credit http://neonglow.net every time a single column layout with stripes is created. I fear that a discussion such as this will cause that reaction due to a fear of being picked apart like a rotten carcass.
I think it’s pretty obvious Daniel got a little too much inspiration from Brent, and everyone seems to agree for the most part (excluding Daniel). He won’t admit he’s wrong and is using invalid points and remarks (see: nothing is original) to try and make himself seem innocent which, in reality, is what is causing all of this bullshit [/end run on sentence].
TGO was no more in the right when he brought Daniel’s sexuality into the discussion using it against him. Disgusting? Yes. Something we can change? Not so much.
That was really pointless, I could of just said people take things too far and can’t admit when they’re wrong. Smarten the fuck up, admit you made a mistake and learn from it then MOVE ON.
I recently was over inspired, had a few posts on an MB made and it was settled like that. I admitted that I made a mistake and I took the layout in question down without causing a fuss. That’s how stuff should be handled unless the drama is funny which in the case, it isn’t.
Sean · Mar 8, 09:27 PM · · Permalink
In regard to the way the discussion has turned…
Bottom line is, you all are perfectly fine harping on someone else for stealing something (whether or not their stealing extends further than yours does) because you can harp and harp and harp and they’re the ones who have to do the work of taking it off and cleaning up their mess. You have no responsibility in the matter at all but presenting the facts correctly, making sure your slights are sophisticated enough, and keeping comments relatively clean.
But how the tables turn when you’re the ones guilty of the crime. Then, it’s no big deal at all. Why? I believe it’s because you simply are too lazy to go back and fix it. And really… how hard is it to delete a theme? That’s a semi-seriously, mostly-rhetorical question, ‘cause I’ve never owned a message board, but as a relatively intelligent human being, I would imagine it’s not so terribly difficult.
Here’s an analogy for you if you still don’t quite get my point: I remember having a particular conversation with Jem a while ago about the torturing of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay detention camp. I originally thought it didn’t matter that the prisoners were being tortured, because what Saddam Hussein did to his people and prisoners was so much worse than what we were doing to ours. But Jem’s [much more correct] point was the old adage, “two wrongs don’t make a right.” Just because what was happening wasn’t as bad as something else, doesn’t make it okay or, pardoning my English, “less bad.” You are just as guilty as any other “teenybopper” out there. End of story.
Just because you don’t put yourself in the category of “teenybopper property stealer” doesn’t mean everyone else won’t.
Just To Clarify Response:
I just want to clarify my earlier comment as well. Yes, I stated that “backs are turned” and maybe that’s not exactly what I should have said. Maybe I should have added “publicly” to the beginning of that sentence. The point I was trying to make using that statement was the fact that when you call someone out on a website that person is more prone in being criticized by others who read the posts. Therefore, when you call someone out but don’t mention about another person whom you are well associated with, others have a tendency of making the misconception that you are willing to tolerate it from one person and not the other. At least that’s the impression that I got. Thank you for clarifying it, but I still feel if you are going to mention something about one person you are going to hear comments like these again. Because as you said, there are many people in your “circle” whom are guilty of many of the same things you will be critical on in your blog.
You ask people not to re-hash the same old crap, but how long are going to keep going on about (e.g. the post at Snark and now the post on IP) this header drama? You don’t care about it, and can’t do shit about changing that it’s there, so just let it lie and hopefully people will just get over it.
Kass · Mar 10, 11:11 PM · · Permalink
what about http://shecriesinside.org? i can’t even read a fucking sentence because hell, she underlines every damn word. her layout is nice but scene kids need to gtfo.
Dora · Mar 19, 01:38 AM · · Permalink
Louise: People only seem to call you horrible and a drama llama when they are caught out on something. Ridiculous really as I bet they’d be cheering you on and joining in if it were someone else.
That’s the feeling I get about a lot of internet drama. It’s like the victim/subject/whoever-is-getting-rebuked is irrelevant, because the same spiel will only be repeated again next week with the new victim being one of those enthusiastically cheering it on this week.
I was so angry when I read all those disparaging comments about originality. Rachael thought I’d pop a vein… or maybe she’s used to me going on a rampage about random people =P
Of course, one has to wonder: what was the pity party about? Right after he left IP, he started things all over in the comments over at Brandy’s site. Yet he’s the one who calls others two-faced.
Vera · Mar 6, 10:25 AM · · Permalink